Significant Tornado Events

[Shakespeare 2016]

I'm normally not one for conspiracy theories but with Vilonia I have to wonder. Or maybe John Robinson, the former director of the NWS who retired in 2014 encouraged him to not change or dispute the rating.

Well I am not big into conspiracy theories but something is wrong when it has been nearly 11 years ago since a tornado was rated EF5.

 

[jiharris0220]

I always use the vastly different degree of damage indicators between hurricanes and tornadoes as “proof” that the latter has significantly higher wind speeds than estimated.
The argument against this is that the wind dynamics in a hurricane are straight line winds, while tornadic winds are chaotic, which makes it easier for a tornado to destroy a structure with the same amount of wind.
The problem with that argument is this only rings true for weakly built structures, well built buildings don’t have weaknesses that can be overcome by wind dynamics.
Hurricane Dorian had 160knot winds and 190knot gust and yet, the worst damage done to traditional built homes were destroyed roofs, something an ef1 tornado can do.

These structures in Hope Town, a barrier island directly exposed to the winds of Dorian, are made of wood, with some having metal roofing. An ef2 would level most of these structures, let alone an ef4, that supposedly has the same level of wind speeds that did this damage.
Keep in mind that hurricanes are far larger and move (far slower on average) than tornadoes. Tornadoes do their damage in seconds to minutes at most, while hurricanes need hours to do their damage. And apparently 1-2hours straight of 160+mph winds failed to even rip most of the roofs off these wooden homes. So it’s no surprise to me that an ef2 at 125mph actually contain winds of 200mph.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

I always use the vastly different degree of damage indicators between hurricanes and tornadoes as “proof” that the latter has significantly higher wind speeds than estimated.
The argument against this is that the wind dynamics in a hurricane are straight line winds, while tornadic winds are chaotic, which makes it easier for a tornado to destroy a structure with the same amount of wind.
The problem with that argument is this only rings true for weakly built structures, well built buildings don’t have weaknesses that can be overcome by wind dynamics.
Hurricane Dorian had 160knot winds and 190knot gust and yet, the worst damage done to traditional built homes were destroyed roofs, something an ef1 tornado can do.
View attachment 25399
These structures in Hope Town, a barrier island directly exposed to the winds of Dorian, are made of wood, with some having metal roofing. An ef2 would level most of these structures, let alone an ef4, that supposedly has the same level of wind speeds that did this damage.
Keep in mind that hurricanes are far larger and move (far slower on average) than tornadoes. Tornadoes do their damage in seconds to minutes at most, while hurricanes need hours to do their damage. And apparently 1-2hours straight of 160+mph winds failed to even rip most of the roofs off these wooden homes. So it’s no surprise to me that an ef2 at 125mph actually contain winds of 200mph.

Yeah, I tend to wonder how a tornado such as the Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC 1999 tornado or the Smithville 2011 tornado didn’t kill or injure more people. Not that I would want that to happen but it seems inevitable when you are talking about winds in excess of 300 mph. Is it easy to survive a tornado in a bathtub on a slab of a well-built home when 300 mph winds are roaring above them?

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Yeah, I tend to wonder how a tornado such as the Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC 1999 tornado or the Smithville 2011 tornado didn’t kill or injure more people. Not that I would want that to happen but it seems inevitable when you are talking about winds in excess of 300 mph. Is it easy to survive a tornado in a bathtub on a slab of a well-built home when 300 mph winds are roaring above them?

Bridge Creek/Moore 1999 was slow-moving & clearly visible; plenty of people in the path of it had time to get in their cars and drive out of the way. Also, it had weakened considerably by the time it reached Moore so it wasn't at full on F5 intensity like when it was over Bridge Creek.
Smithville didn't kill as many people as it could have because it hit the town at a time when most of its residents were out at work; majority of the fatalities were retirees or stay at home parents. Plus, if you see footage of it the tornado was widely visible & not rain-wrapped like you would expect for a Dixie Alley event; that likely brought down the fatality and injury rate.

 

[joshoctober16]

Bridge Creek/Moore 1999 was slow-moving & clearly visible; plenty of people in the path of it had time to get in their cars and drive out of the way. Also, it had weakened considerably by the time it reached Moore so it wasn't at full on F5 intensity like when it was over Bridge Creek.
Smithville didn't kill as many people as it could have because it hit the town at a time when most of its residents were out at work; majority of the fatalities were retirees or stay at home parents. Plus, if you see footage of it the tornado was widely visible & not rain-wrapped like you would expect for a Dixie Alley event; that likely brought down the fatality and injury rate.

what was the famous 302 mph wind speed measured at? in terms of height?
also i honestly believe bridge creek 1999 had 2 different max points, the famous bridge creek, and the other is the moore golfing area, luckly there was almost no homes there , but the animals were severely mutulated and the debarking was extreme, along with extreme ground scouring and debris granulation.

 

[joshoctober16]

i could of swore there was a tornado that did philadelphia like scouring that wasnt int he usa, anyone have any clue what tornado im talking about? trying to find the iamges of this.

 

[Austin Dawg]

Bridge Creek/Moore 1999 was slow-moving & clearly visible; plenty of people in the path of it had time to get in their cars and drive out of the way. Also, it had weakened considerably by the time it reached Moore so it wasn't at full on F5 intensity like when it was over Bridge Creek.
Smithville didn't kill as many people as it could have because it hit the town at a time when most of its residents were out at work; majority of the fatalities were retirees or stay at home parents. Plus, if you see footage of it the tornado was widely visible & not rain-wrapped like you would expect for a Dixie Alley event; that likely brought down the fatality and injury rate.

If Smithville had sat down 10 minutes later, we might not be discussing it as much. Smithville was a speck of a town and nobody was there when it hit. I hate to even imagine the same storm in a population center.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

Bridge Creek/Moore 1999 was slow-moving & clearly visible; plenty of people in the path of it had time to get in their cars and drive out of the way. Also, it had weakened considerably by the time it reached Moore so it wasn't at full on F5 intensity like when it was over Bridge Creek.
Smithville didn't kill as many people as it could have because it hit the town at a time when most of its residents were out at work; majority of the fatalities were retirees or stay at home parents. Plus, if you see footage of it the tornado was widely visible & not rain-wrapped like you would expect for a Dixie Alley event; that likely brought down the fatality and injury rate.

I am not sure how I would compare the Andover, KS F5 tornado on April 26, 1991 VS Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC F5 tornado on May 3, 1999. The Andover 1991 tornado was 1/3 the size and moved faster than the Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC 1999 tornado. Hundreds of people could have died in that tornado but the brave police officers and fire fighters blaring their sirens warning people in the Golden Spur mobile home park and going door to door teling people that they needed to get to the underground tornado shelter . Most people lived because of the brave police officers and firefighters and got in the underground tornado shelter. The sirens I guess were not working in Andover on that day. I remember that day as I was 10 years old and it was a really warm and muggy day.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I am not sure how I would compare the Andover, KS F5 tornado on April 26, 1991 VS Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC F5 tornado on May 3, 1999. The Andover 1991 tornado was 1/3 the size and moved faster than the Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC 1999 tornado. Hundreds of people could have died in that tornado but the brave police officers and fire fighters blaring their sirens warning people in the Golden Spur mobile home park and going door to door teling people that they needed to get to the underground tornado shelter . Most people lived because of the brave police officers and firefighters and got in the underground tornado shelter. The sirens I guess were not working in Andover on that day. I remember that day as I was 10 years old and it was a really warm and muggy day.

What's Andover got to do with this?
Anyways, the 1991 Andover tornado's fatality rate was definitely lower due to Golden Spur having a tornado cellar to go to; most trailer parks don't.
The police driving around helped too.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

What's Andover got to do with this?
Anyways, the 1991 Andover tornado's fatality rate was definitely lower due to Golden Spur having a tornado cellar to go to; most trailer parks don't.
The police driving around helped too.

Both tornadoes just seem to be related in many ways.

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

What's Andover got to do with this?
Anyways, the 1991 Andover tornado's fatality rate was definitely lower due to Golden Spur having a tornado cellar to go to; most trailer parks don't.
The police driving around helped too.

I guess another thing I wanted to say as we have talked about Smithville and Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC in terms of fewer fatalities and injuries from those two tornadoes is similar to why a lot of people weren't killed and injured during the Andover 1991 tornado. That is all thanks to the police officers and firefighters blaring their sirens around Andover on that day.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

I guess another thing I wanted to say as we have talked about Smithville and Bridge Creek-Moore-OKC in terms of fewer fatalities and injuries from those two tornadoes is similar to why a lot of people weren't killed and injured during the Andover 1991 tornado. That is all thanks to the police officers and firefighters blaring their sirens around Andover on that day.

Yeah, Andover, Bridge Creek-Moore & Smithville could be what Grazulis considers "maxi-tornadoes" and very few tornadoes earn that rating from him. I get where you're coming from.

 

[HAwkmoon]

i never said anything about 700 mph? i was just saying that the study shows that 150 mph damage tends to be apparently made by 261 mph winds, this fits well with andover 2022.

You said EF5s can go up to near 700 mph.

 

[joshoctober16]

You said EF5s can go up to near 700 mph.

and where? you do know we can all look back in in the other page and see i never said 700 mph tornado....
the closest thing is this

and that was just a damage to wind speed base on what that paper has found, the highest true official damage is 210 mph , that would put it at 413 mph not 700 mph....
note its this paper, (dash line is the left wind speed above, and filled in line is the wind speed on the right)

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

and where? you do know we can all look back in in the other page and see i never said 700 mph tornado....
the closest thing is this
View attachment 25415
and that was just a damage to wind speed base on what that paper has found, the highest true official damage is 210 mph , that would put it at 413 mph not 700 mph....
note its this paper, (dash line is the left wind speed above, and filled in line is the wind speed on the right)
View attachment 25416

The one thing about the Andover 2022 tornado the 264 mph was like 200 feet up and not as strong at the surface. It was probably significantly greater than 155 mph but not 264 mph winds at the surface.

 

[joshoctober16]

The one thing about the Andover 2022 tornado the 264 mph was like 200 feet up and not as strong at the surface. It was probably significantly greater than 155 mph but not 264 mph winds at the surface.

it was 30 meters off the surface and the winds were on it for around 11 to 12 seconds, on the IF scale they state you can use anything in surface to 60 meters for the rating (radar and photogrammetry, but 0-10 meters for a probe or a instrument in the torando) , you can use 0,1,2,3 second gust as well.

(edit:wierd glitch put some text from last post for some reason)

 

[Shakespeare 2016]

it was 30 meters off the surface and the winds were on it for around 11 to 12 seconds, on the IF scale they state you can use anything in surface to 60 meters for the rating (radar and photogrammetry, but 0-10 meters for a probe or a instrument in the torando) , you can use 0,1,2,3 second gust as well.

(edit:wierd glitch put some text from last post for some reason)

It may have been. I have heard from other storm chasers and weather enthusiasts that the Greensburg, KS 2007 EF5 tornado probably had winds of like 260 to 280 mph. If I remember correctly the Tuscaloosa 2011 and the Mayfield 2021 tornadoes had winds similar to the Greensburg tornado. Tuscaloosa and Mayfield were given a high-end EF4 rating with 190 mph winds and the Greensburg tornado an EF5 rating with 205 mph winds. Yes, I always wonder about the discrepancy as that is like a 70 to 80 mph difference.

 

[SpotlightForRareTornadoes]

This 4 YO survived an F5 tornado.... then was abducted without a trace. (The disturbing case of Joan Gay Croft and the 1947 Woodward, OK Tornado)
On April 9th, 1947, the sixth deadliest tornado struck the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles and even crossed into Kansas. This event is known as the Glazier-Higgins-Woodward F5 tornado. 181 people lost their lives, and 107 died in Woodward alone. However, it was only the beginning. The night after the tornado, a little girl was taken away from her family by three mysterious men. No one knew them, nor did they know their true intentions. All they heard of them was that they showed up that night, claiming that they were there to take Joan Gay Croft to Oklahoma City, where she would receive better medical treatment. But after they left, neither Joan nor the three men were ever seen again. And 77 years later, she is still nowhere to be found.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Oh my bad I thought you were talking about the vehicle damage at the Sleepy Hollow Mobile Home Park in Woodward! Sorry that’s on me.

You’re taking about Capitol/Camp Crook. So in this case there was some very deep scouring, and a few other things that make the “coulda been an EF5” statement not so far fetched. I thought you were trying to say Woodward 2012 was an EF5 candidate. Sorry for being dismissive.

I do agree with TH2002. Woodward was probably a low-end EF4. I think they had enough to rate it as such, even if it was just based on that one house.

FWIW Grazulis thinks Camp Crook was a high-end EF4 in the new book.

 

[Juliett Bravo Kilo]

Sorry deleted previous comment. I misunderstood what the point you were trying to get across. Grazulis does seem to be strangely dismissive of Bassfield, and it absolutely was a high-end EF4 tornado that was likely capable of producing legit EF5 damage.

I do agree with JAN’s assessment of high-end EF4 though. That’s as high as they could go. If you’ve seen a “before” picture of the cabin that got slabbed, you’ll understand why. It was a small tin-roofed outbuilding-like structure. They leaves us with the extreme debarking, scouring, and vehicle damage, but nothing structurally sound enough to fully push it above the high-end EF4 range into EF5 criteria. Same thing happened in Bremen, KY.

Imo, that most recent no-brainer “shoulda been EF5” was Chapman 2016. It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen something truly meet the criteria.

In the new book he lists Chapman as "near-EF5" so not perfect, but better than nothing.