Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

[SASQUATCH]

RTR

ROLL TUA ROLL

 

[Evan]

So, I think Kavanaugh is lying about about the Renate alumnus yearbook inscription, never blacking out while drinking, and that "Ralph Club" was because he has a weak stomach. There's a couple of other uncredible things he has said.

On the flip side, Ford definitely has serious holes in her story, clearly was uncredible about flying and some timing things as well as how good her memory is of the events that took place.

Kavanaugh can't admit to being an immature hard partying frat boy so he lies. Ford can't admit she doesn't remember everything with sufficient clarity because it will cast doubt on her claim.

We're essentially back where we started. A threadbare accusation without corroboration and a guy who cannot be asked to prove a negative. Especially since he was an immature hard drinking frat boy at times. But to prove he's even LIKELY guilty of sex assault we need real evidence.

 

[Evan]

Something interesting to note:

Why such little focus on the accusations made by the other two women? Is it because even the Democrats realize those two allegations lack even the threadbare credibility of the Ford accusation?

 

[gangstonc]

Something interesting to note:

Why such little focus on the accusations made by the other two women? Is it because even the Democrats realize those two allegations lack even the threadbare credibility of the Ford accusation?

I know avenatti has been working hard to get swetnick under oath, but isn’t receiving any replies.

The thing that really bothers me is that Ford wants an FBI investigation and Kavanaugh does not.

 

[Kory]

Holy crap Lindsey Graham. He came out swinging and held back no punches.

 

[ARCC]

I know avenatti has been working hard to get swetnick under oath, but isn’t receiving any replies.

The thing that really bothers me is that Ford wants an FBI investigation and Kavanaugh does not.

Why would he? I wouldnt either if I were him and were completely innocent. The longer this drags on, the less chance he gets appointed no matter what the results are and really just give more time for additional allegations to appear. They just need to vote, from the little I heard, both sides are are set. No additional opinion will change it.

That said Fienstien made an absolute fool of herself at the end and it was glorious.

 

[Evan]

I can confirm that I cannot find ANY information on a Devil's Triangle drinking game. Boofing as flatulence...yes that's a thing. I think it is very likely Kavanaugh lied about the Devil's Triangle although it is possible it was an inside joke description for them although these interviews seem to show at least some of his HS classmates unaware of it.

A Google search with date adjust doesn't show anything for a Devil's Triangle Drinking game.

It comes down to this: we know Kavanaugh lied about not being black out drunk. Anyone that drank as frequently as he himself has claimed to have done in HS/College has blacked out before or at BEST had very fuzzy memories about a night. Was he lying to shutdown a possible angle of attack because further scrutiny in the court of public opinion might cost it cost him his nomination, or because he did engage in some of the behavior alleged?

To be clear, I don't think he raped anyone. And I'm certainly not convinced any of the people making allegations have proven those allegations. But it doe bother me that a future SCOTUS Justice is lying about some items in Senate testimony.

I don't think either side proved their case. I don't know that they had to. Republicans want to confirm and Democrats wanted to make sure that if he is confirmed that a huge number of Americans will consider his rulings to be illegitimate.

 

[Evan]

Why would he? I wouldnt either if I were him and were completely innocent. The longer this drags on, the less chance he gets appointed no matter what the results are and really just give more time for additional allegations to appear. They just need to vote, from the little I heard, both sides are are set. No additional opinion will change it.

That said Fienstien made an absolute fool of herself at the end and it was glorious.

I think it is an unsolvable conundrum.

 

[gangstonc]

Why would he? I wouldnt either if I were him and were completely innocent. The longer this drags on, the less chance he gets appointed no matter what the results are and really just give more time for additional allegations to appear. They just need to vote, from the little I heard, both sides are are set. No additional opinion will change it.

That said Fienstien made an absolute fool of herself at the end and it was glorious.

He would to clear his name. An fbi investigation would take less than a week and likely find nothing.

 

[Kory]

It is interesting to see how the media and general public handle Kavanaugh after he was accused and Keith Ellison. The media is quite ambivalent on one, yet the other is 24/7 news coverage.

The investigation is wrapping up on Ellison's multiple accusations and will be released soon from what I have read.

 

[ARCC]

He would to clear his name. An fbi investigation would take less than a week and likely find nothing.

They wouldnt clear anything. If for some miracle it was done in a week, we would be where we are. Do you really think that the democrats would say "We are sorry, the investigation proved she was lying"? No way, theyd complain it was done too fast and the GOP pushed it through. And likewise from the GOP if the reverse were true.

 

[ARCC]

I think it is an unsolvable conundrum.

Agree. Even if you take the middle road, you get that Kav lied about liking his beer and Ford over stated the encounter. That is not enough to not vote on nomination.

 

[Evan]

It also bothers me that Kavanaugh went on that angry partisan rant. A SCOTUS Justice can't do that no matter how much you want to lash out and no matter how unfair the other side is being.

There are no winners from this mess. It will further divide the country.

It bothers me that Kavanaugh clearly lied at times. Why not just take the hit? The accusations are going to be there no matter what. At least don't be outed as a liar. I can understand WHY he might have done that, but it bothers me a lot. Explain that yes you drank too much at times and had fuzzy memories the next day, but blackout drunk doesn't mean you can't remember anything. His calendars and statements by the supposed witnesses were enough to say I'm positive this never happened. Never once did I drink to the point that I would've sexually assaulted someone or wouldn't remember such an act. Take the hit but be honest.

The Renate thing was also a lie. It was clearly meant to signify they'd done something sexual or made out with her. That she was easy. Own up to it and apologize.

Obviously the Democrats intended to force him into admitting character damaging items or to lie. He chose to lie on some of them. Do the ends justify the means?

Should a SCOTUS Justice lob such a partisan attack when there are already questions about your fairness? Especially after you worked as a GOP partisan trying to (rightly) take down Bill Clinton?

Sure, it seems Kavanaugh was put into a heads we win tales you lose type of situation. But politics ain't beanbag and life isn't fair. What is your integrity worth compared to your ambition?

They'll never be able to prove he sexually assaulted anyone. I don't think he did, either. I'm 99.9% certain - very close to 100% - that he didn't. But they didn't have to prove it. They simply needed to impugn his juvenile behavior and his past character and see if he'd risk his integrity over it. Unfortunately, I think he chose poorly however justified he may believe he was, and I sympathize with the unwinnable position he was in.

If I was on the Judiciary Committee or a Senator I don't know how I'd vote.

It's almost like: "Your honor, I couldn't have possibly robbed that bank. I was cheating on my wife that day, and my girlfriend and our favorite restaurant can confirm we were having lunch at that time."

Perhaps if Kavanaugh is confirmed he'll have a new outlook on the burden of proof in criminal cases, false accusations, etc and be a reliable defender of civil liberties.

I was all for confirming him. But, I was against Trump because of his lack of integrity, lack of character, and willingness to lie to achieve his ambitions. How can I give Kavanaugh a pass on that?

 

[Arcadia]

I feel the way Lindsey Graham feels. He pretty much said what was in my heart today. And I'm just going to let that be that.

 

[gangstonc]

Agree. Even if you take the middle road, you get that Kav lied about liking his beer and Ford over stated the encounter. That is not enough to not vote on nomination.

Taking the middle road shows it is obvious Kavanaugh is a liar. That makes him ineligible.

 

[gangstonc]

It also bothers me that Kavanaugh went on that angry partisan rant. A SCOTUS Justice can't do that no matter how much you want to lash out and no matter how unfair the other side is being.

There are no winners from this mess. It will further divide the country.

It bothers me that Kavanaugh clearly lied at times. Why not just take the hit? The accusations are going to be there no matter what. At least don't be outed as a liar. I can understand WHY he might have done that, but it bothers me a lot. Explain that yes you drank too much at times and had fuzzy memories the next day, but blackout drunk doesn't mean you can't remember anything. His calendars and statements by the supposed witnesses were enough to say I'm positive this never happened. Never once did I drink to the point that I would've sexually assaulted someone or wouldn't remember such an act. Take the hit but be honest.

The Renate thing was also a lie. It was clearly meant to signify they'd done something sexual or made out with her. That she was easy. Own up to it and apologize.

Obviously the Democrats intended to force him into admitting character damaging items or to lie. He chose to lie on some of them. Do the ends justify the means?

Should a SCOTUS Justice lob such a partisan attack when there are already questions about your fairness? Especially after you worked as a GOP partisan trying to (rightly) take down Bill Clinton?

Sure, it seems Kavanaugh was put into a heads we win tales you lose type of situation. But politics ain't beanbag and life isn't fair. What is your integrity worth compared to your ambition?

They'll never be able to prove he sexually assaulted anyone. I don't think he did, either. I'm 99.9% certain - very close to 100% - that he didn't. But they didn't have to prove it. They simply needed to impugn his juvenile behavior and his past character and see if he'd risk his integrity over it. Unfortunately, I think he chose poorly however justified he may believe he was, and I sympathize with the unwinnable position he was in.

If I was on the Judiciary Committee or a Senator I don't know how I'd vote.

It's almost like: "Your honor, I couldn't have possibly robbed that bank. I was cheating on my wife that day, and my girlfriend and our favorite restaurant can confirm we were having lunch at that time."

Perhaps if Kavanaugh is confirmed he'll have a new outlook on the burden of proof in criminal cases, false accusations, etc and be a reliable defender of civil liberties.

I was all for confirming him. But, I was against Trump because of his lack of integrity, lack of character, and willingness to lie to achieve his ambitions. How can I give Kavanaugh a pass on that?

My feelings exactly.

 

[Mike S]

The thing that really bothers me is that Ford wants an FBI investigation and Kavanaugh does not.

In response to Durbin wanting Kavanaugh to request an FBI investigation, Kavanaugh's reply:

"I welcome whatever the committee wants to do become I'm telling the truth".

Sounds to me like he'd be okay. I see no reason why he should request it, but it is obvious he would accept it as part of this circus if the FBI did investigate.

That said Fienstien made an absolute fool of herself at the end and it was glorious.

Feinstein made a fool of herself all day long and over the last few weeks. Over the last 26 years, really. The Democrats could have already had their FBI investigation had their ranking member not played politics with the lives of two people.

I can confirm that I cannot find ANY information on a Devil's Triangle drinking game. Boofing as flatulence...yes that's a thing. I think it is very likely Kavanaugh lied about the Devil's Triangle although it is possible it was an inside joke description for them although these interviews seem to show at least some of his HS classmates unaware of it.

A Google search with date adjust doesn't show anything for a Devil's Triangle Drinking game.

It comes down to this: we know Kavanaugh lied about not being black out drunk. Anyone that drank as frequently as he himself has claimed to have done in HS/College has blacked out before or at BEST had very fuzzy memories about a night. Was he lying to shutdown a possible angle of attack because further scrutiny in the court of public opinion might cost it cost him his nomination, or because he did engage in some of the behavior alleged?

Until today I never heard the term Devil's Triangle to mean anything other than a nickname for the Bermuda Triangle. Kavanaugh specifically said it was a game similar to quarters and used 3 cups, hence triangle. Keep in mind the timeline of his use of Devil's Triangle - 1983. Bermuda Triangle theories were rampant in the late 70's/early 80's, with multiple shows and books on the subject. One of the first "grown up" books I ever voluntarily read was a book about the Bermuda Triangle.

My point is it makes sense that a game or activity that includes the use of 3 anythings from that era might get a name like Devil's Triangle. It was a huge subject back then. A drinking game isn't nearly as salacious as some might want it to be, but I tend to believe Kavanaugh on this matter.

I also take umbrage at the perceptions on how he handled his alcohol. Alcohol affects different people differently. I've had a drink or 10 at various times in my life, and there have been times where I might be described as sloppy drunk. I actually have some very vivid memories of a few particular times I was loaded and never remember an instance where I didn't have a memory of something that happened when I was drunk. Again, alcohol affects different people differently.

Was everything Kavanaugh said today 100% accurate? Probably not. Whether or not any inaccuracies were on purpose is something only he knows. The same can be said for Dr. Ford as well.

The time for an FBI investigation has passed. This could have been done 5 times over already. This is gutter politics by the Democrats.

He would to clear his name. An fbi investigation would take less than a week and likely find nothing.

He's completed 6 FBI background checks already. He's vetted. If it was so important for the FBI to investigate this issue, Feinstein could have requested one weeks ago.

I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted. I found her to be mostly convincing, though obviously coached which I believe led to some inconsistencies. I just don't know who assaulted her. She is 100% certain it was Kavanaugh, and he's 100% certain it wasn't him. He also has a lot of important facts on his side. She was 15 and had a beer, and as I said above alcohol affects different people differently. Who knows what that one beer did to her and just how much it may have clouded her judgement.

Its an unfortunate situation anyway you look at it, but I think after spending the entire day watching and listening to this testimony(I happened to be home today) the only course of action I feel we should take from here is to allow the Senate to vote on Kavanaught's confirmation.

 

[Mike S]

tl;dr

 

[Evan]

I feel the way Lindsey Graham feels. He pretty much said what was in my heart today. And I'm just going to let that be that.

I'm not as upset as I once was. This is the Democrats we're dealing with. We should've known from moment one they'd try to pull some stunt. It is truly nasty because they don't really care about Ford. They are using her politically.

I just don't understand why Kavanaugh decided to lie. I think if he'd have been honest - even to the point that it hurt him some - it would've made his denials of the sex assault that much more believable.

I feel like Kavanaugh's testimony spent a lot of time on throwing partisan jabs and red meat to the base and won't help him in the long term. There were independents and people on the fence - including some in the GOP - and Kavanaugh's testimony was catering to those who had already made up their mind to support Kavanaugh no matter what. I think he lost an opportunity to be a little more measured, more restrained when parrying jabs from the Democratic Senators, etc. An angry opening statement was fine, but Kavanaugh needed to make the Democrats look unfair and partisan. Instead, he essentially helped cover some of their partisanship and mob mentality by interrupting, being sarcastic, and giving mom-answers too frequently instead of politely repeating what he'd already testified to.

He needed to make them look like bullies trying to ruin his life. But his belligerence and partisanship, along with Republicans constantly apologizing to him took any chance at that away. His exchange with Klobuchar hurt him. Even he knew it because he apologized when he came back from the break.

Today likely made it so Kavanaugh will be confirmed but did so at the cost of independent fence-sitters and moderate GOP women. To have a legacy as a respected SCOTUS Justice, I just don't know that his attitude today was the right play because you need integrity and legitimacy on your side.

I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong to an extent. But I remain confused as to why Kavanaugh decided to lie about stupid/silly things that most intelligent people will easily question. Understandable but wholly unnecessary. I hope the rumors that he shifted tactics somewhat to shore up Trump's supports are untrue. I think he made some unforced errors.

 

[Mike S]

I'm not as upset as I once was. This is the Democrats we're dealing with. We should've known from moment one they'd try to pull some stunt. It is truly nasty because they don't really care about Ford. They are using her politically.

I just don't understand why Kavanaugh decided to lie. I think if he'd have been honest - even to the point that it hurt him some - it would've made his denials of the sex assault that much more believable.

I feel like Kavanaugh's testimony spent a lot of time on throwing partisan jabs and red meat to the base and won't help him in the long term. There were independents and people on the fence - including some in the GOP - and Kavanaugh's testimony was catering to those who had already made up their mind to support Kavanaugh no matter what. I think he lost an opportunity to be a little more measured, more restrained when parrying jabs from the Democratic Senators, etc. An angry opening statement was fine, but Kavanaugh needed to make the Democrats look unfair and partisan. Instead, he essentially helped cover some of their partisanship and mob mentality by interrupting, being sarcastic, and giving mom-answers too frequently instead of politely repeating what he'd already testified to.

He needed to make them look like bullies trying to ruin his life. But his belligerence and partisanship, along with Republicans constantly apologizing to him took any chance at that away. His exchange with Klobuchar hurt him. Even he knew it because he apologized when he came back from the break.

Today likely made it so Kavanaugh will be confirmed but did so at the cost of independent fence-sitters and moderate GOP women. To have a legacy as a respected SCOTUS Justice, I just don't know that his attitude today was the right play because you need integrity and legitimacy on your side.

I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong to an extent. But I remain confused as to why Kavanaugh decided to lie about stupid/silly things that most intelligent people will easily question. Understandable but wholly unnecessary. I hope the rumors that he shifted tactics somewhat to shore up Trump's supports are untrue. I think he made some unforced errors.

Well, they did come across as bullies without his help. The entire afternoon was bullying for the most part.

I wish he would have dialed back some of the rhetoric but dammit if I'm innocent and being dragged through the mud I'm likely going to be a little pissy at times as well.

I'm not sure I understand what independents and moderate GOP woment have to do with this - he only needs to convince 51 Republicans to vote yes, and I think Susan Collins and others will fall in line when it comes time to count votes.

I do think his approval will hurt the Republicans in November, just like I feel it will help them if he is rejected. He's going to be a political issue as we near mid terms.