Archive 2017-2019 Political Thread

[Daryl]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...uke-reaction-trump-news-conference/570517001/

 

[ARCC]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...uke-reaction-trump-news-conference/570517001/

I'm not one for defending Trump, but he was right. You had two idiot groups duking it out like animals in the street.

 

[KoD]

No doubt that the pack mentality and refusal for either political faction to compromise is one of the, if not the most debilitating aspect of government today. But I don't see what Obama has to do with any of this.. To contradict Arcadia I believe for most Democrats and many moderates he did a great job uniting and energizing people. I can see how one would think the opposite when the right used every possible opportunity to villainize him in any way.
On a related note I read "the response of former President Barack Obama to the violence in Charlottesville has become the most-liked tweet ever."
Sure seems like he isn't as controversial as people want him to be.

 

[Mike S]

Barack Obama never let a chance to divide the country along racial and/or religious lines slip by. He is absolutely a large part of the climate today and it was his rhetoric that contributed to the rise of Trump.

 

[Daryl]

 

[Arcadia]

No doubt that the pack mentality and refusal for either political faction to compromise is one of the, if not the most debilitating aspect of government today. But I don't see what Obama has to do with any of this.. To contradict Arcadia I believe for most Democrats and many moderates he did a great job uniting and energizing people. I can see how one would think the opposite when the right used every possible opportunity to villainize him in any way.
On a related note I read "the response of former President Barack Obama to the violence in Charlottesville has become the most-liked tweet ever."
Sure seems like he isn't as controversial as people want him to be.

I believe I stated exactly what Obama has to do with this.

 

[maroonedinhsv]

No doubt that the pack mentality and refusal for either political faction to compromise is one of the, if not the most debilitating aspect of government today. But I don't see what Obama has to do with any of this.. To contradict Arcadia I believe for most Democrats and many moderates he did a great job uniting and energizing people. I can see how one would think the opposite when the right used every possible opportunity to villainize him in any way.
On a related note I read "the response of former President Barack Obama to the violence in Charlottesville has become the most-liked tweet ever."
Sure seems like he isn't as controversial as people want him to be.

Uniting your side while isolating the opposing side isn't uniting, it's dividing.

 

[KoD]

Uniting your side while isolating the opposing side isn't uniting, it's dividing.

We're a few steps ahead of that. The irrational hatred of everything-obama because it was from, about or around Obama is exactly what the left has heard for the past 9 years.. Now suddenly we all realize how debilitating it is to do that? How convenient. The right & right media is just as much to blame for the political climate and decisiveness today as anyone else.

 

[Matt]

Barack Obama never let a chance to divide the country along racial and/or religious lines slip by. He is absolutely a large part of the climate today and it was his rhetoric that contributed to the rise of Trump.

This is Obama's legacy. BLM, The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Sharpton and others were all guests to the White House while barry was president. I do not believe you will see the KKK or other white nationalist groups being invited by Trump.

 

[Evan]

This is Obama's legacy. BLM, The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Sharpton and others were all guests to the White House while barry was president. I do not believe you will see the KKK or other white nationalist groups being invited by Trump.

They don't need to visit the White House as Trump, Miller, and Bannon are already there.

Spencer, Duke, and all these other vapid fools are the ideological brethren of Bannon and Miller.

And Trump hasn't merely dipped his toe in the water of justifying, praising, and aligning with these groups -- only the bald spot on top of his head is still above water.

 

[Evan]

I'm not one for defending Trump, but he was right. You had two idiot groups duking it out like animals in the street.

Your conclusion sums up exactly what Trump and these various racist groups want people to believe. I watched multiple live streams of the protest and resulting violence.

There were definitely violent anti-fascists, anarchists, and communists inciting violence and engaging in violence. However, there were also normal counter protesters from the community at large and even local religious groups and religious leaders. There were even families there standing by peacefully holding signs condemning the Nazi & KKK groups.

The same cannot be said of the Nazi & KKK groups. I've seen zero proof of any normal person attending that was there to protest the removal of the statute. Find some examples because I've looked and looked and I haven't been able to find ANY. The groups there to protest the removal of the statute were all white supremacist, racist, and Nazi type groups.

That's why this "condemn" both sides rhetoric is absurd. There were no "fine people" there waving a Nazi flag or dressed in a Klan robe.

Trump could have easily said the various Nazi and KKK groups were reprehensible and an anathema to American values while condemning the hate and violence they brought. And he could have said his condemnation of violence also extends to the anti-fascist groups that used violent tactics while praising the citizens that "protested hate with their speech instead of succumbing to violent means."

Instead, Trump wants the narrative to be that the racist groups had "many fine people" in them while the left-wing groups were lawless agitators and professional protesters.

The very fact that the victim of the terrorist attack was a local resident unconnected to the anti-fascist groups is prima facie evidence that the narrative of "both sides were equally guilty and evil" is utterly false.

Trump obviously didn't want to give the statement he gave on Monday. His motive could be that he is terrified of losing the support of groups that make up a very vocal part of his base, or his motive could be that he's sympathetic to their cause. Either way, he gave those repugnant groups EXACTLY what they wanted as evidenced by their responses to his press conference yesterday. David Duke, Spencer, and many other alt-right or racist groups were thrilled.

Their goal is not just to get their message of hate out. It is to have their actions normalized and equalized versus those that protest against racist ideologies and hate. There were no good Nazis in Virginia this past weekend. But, there were good people there protesting them.

I think this is clear to anyone that really examines the event closely. But, if someone has proof of good Nazis or protesters on that side please show us. Because I've seen zero evidence of it.

 

[Evan]

I completely agree that both parties are guilty of playing identity politics. But, this didn't start with Obama. The legacy of identity politics goes back many decades. George Wallace. Nixon's "Southern Strategy." And it existed before that time period as well.

Obama certainly did contribute to the climate of racial mistrust, and he very clearly made public mistakes like the Henry Gates incident and "bitter clingers" (which, ironically, he was right about). And, yes, he normalized or was reticent to condemn identity based groups like BLM.

But, he also broke with those groups on quite a few occasions, and I don't believe he stoked or appeased the extreme radical fringe like Trump has done.

History has nuance, and birthers existed long before BLM or other groups came about. As stated, identity politics existed long before Obama, but he certainly didn't end them and at times inflamed and exacerbated the tensions surrounding race and the politics of race.

I just don't believe that Trump and Obama can be compared on this issue. For a number of reasons that would take way too long to lay out. I don't think you disagree with that.

With that said, irrespective of the media worship of Obama, I think most of us can agree that even though Obama contributed to simmering racial tensions, Trump has poured gasoline all over a pyre and is walking around flicking lit matches nearly every day.

I have a bit of a biased perspective because the groups Trump is whitewashing want my wife and children to either be expelled from the country or cremated in an oven. And I never felt Obama glorified groups that wanted to do anything similar to white people like me.

I've always been a bit of a raging optimist when it comes to life and society, but Trump has tapped an ugly vein in the heart of America that both angers and saddens me. And, it's actually frightening when you consider that what some of these groups want for my family isn't an exaggeration -- it's what they literally believe.

So, Obama doesn't deserve a free pass and did contribute to today's climate, but what Trump is doing is infinitely worse in my view. He's made these groups feel safe to preach and spread their hate, and he's emboldened others that are disaffected members of society or harbored latent racist beliefs. The entire specter of identity politics needs to be destroyed for the good of the country.

 

[Evan]

One thing to keep in mind: historically, when Trump has been under sustained criticism from numerous directions, he does or says something to create a new distraction.

I won't be surprised if a major policy announcement or military action takes place very soon. Or, perhaps, his friends in Russia have something up their sleeve.

Either way, we all know it's coming.

 

[ARCC]

Your conclusion sums up exactly what Trump and these various racist groups want people to believe. I watched multiple live streams of the protest and resulting violence.

There were definitely violent anti-fascists, anarchists, and communists inciting violence and engaging in violence. However, there were also normal counter protesters from the community at large and even local religious groups and religious leaders. There were even families there standing by peacefully holding signs condemning the Nazi & KKK groups.

The same cannot be said of the Nazi & KKK groups. I've seen zero proof of any normal person attending that was there to protest the removal of the statute. Find some examples because I've looked and looked and I haven't been able to find ANY. The groups there to protest the removal of the statute were all white supremacist, racist, and Nazi type groups.

That's why this "condemn" both sides rhetoric is absurd. There were no "fine people" there waving a Nazi flag or dressed in a Klan robe.

Trump could have easily said the various Nazi and KKK groups were reprehensible and an anathema to American values while condemning the hate and violence they brought. And he could have said his condemnation of violence also extends to the anti-fascist groups that used violent tactics while praising the citizens that "protested hate with their speech instead of succumbing to violent means."

Instead, Trump wants the narrative to be that the racist groups had "many fine people" in them while the left-wing groups were lawless agitators and professional protesters.

The very fact that the victim of the terrorist attack was a local resident unconnected to the anti-fascist groups is prima facie evidence that the narrative of "both sides were equally guilty and evil" is utterly false.

Trump obviously didn't want to give the statement he gave on Monday. His motive could be that he is terrified of losing the support of groups that make up a very vocal part of his base, or his motive could be that he's sympathetic to their cause. Either way, he gave those repugnant groups EXACTLY what they wanted as evidenced by their responses to his press conference yesterday. David Duke, Spencer, and many other alt-right or racist groups were thrilled.

Their goal is not just to get their message of hate out. It is to have their actions normalized and equalized versus those that protest against racist ideologies and hate. There were no good Nazis in Virginia this past weekend. But, there were good people there protesting them.

I think this is clear to anyone that really examines the event closely. But, if someone has proof of good Nazis or protesters on that side please show us. Because I've seen zero evidence of it.

I highly doubt there were any good nazi protesters there however unless I'm wrong there were only around a hundred of that group protesting based on some of the articles I read after the protest. However the volience was squarely on both sides once again based on articles I read. The nazi people planned on riling people up and you have some of the counter protesters who wanted to fight as well. I'm absolutely sure there were lots of good people who counter protested who had nothing to do with the fighting. Sadly they probably were the ones hurt by the idiot with the car. From the articles have read, the media and politians have failed to equate blame to the counter protesters who escalated the violence.

Trump may be doing exactly what you say he's doing, I don't know. That said you still had idiots duking it out in the streets and the news helping fan the flames. Personally the best thing to do about it should have been to not counter protest and let the few idiots realize that no one cares about them anymore. All the resistance and media coverage gave them news coverage they didn't deserve and probably helps their propaganda. That is what annoys me is now this group has a scapegoat instead of being shown how little they matter.

 

[Evan]

This is going to get fun. Apoplexy, here we come! Language warning.

http://dcwhispers.com/breaking-char...activist-obama-supporter/#AxytGY1EleBBfPUh.97

Not uncommon for malcontents, social misfits, and grifters to drift from one extreme counterculture to the next. Doesn't mean they don't become true believers

But, you are right. We should probably be suspect of recent converts to a movement or Party...like say a lifelong Democrat that suddenly becomes a Republican and starts destroying the Party from within.

 

[Evan]

I highly doubt there were any good nazi protesters there however unless I'm wrong there were only around a hundred of that group protesting based on some of the articles I read after the protest. However the volience was squarely on both sides once again based on articles I read. The nazi people planned on riling people up and you have some of the counter protesters who wanted to fight as well.

Trump may be doing exactly what you say he's doing, I don't know. That said you still had idiots duking it out in the streets and the news helping fan the flames. Personally the best thing to do about it should have been to not counter protest and let the few idiots realize that no one cares about them anymore. All the resistance and media coverage gave them news coverage they didn't deserve and probably helps their propaganda.

There were around a hundred at the rally the night before. At the protest the next day you had 500+ Nazis, White Supremacists, White Nationalists, etc.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/536775/


And this is what I mean about how one side had regular people on it and another only had extremists:



I followed this event extensively. 500 is probably a fair estimate although I don't know if it included some of the random militia guys that wouldn't say who they are or what they were there for, but they stayed in close proximity to the hate groups. Almost like "security" although plenty of the Nazi and hate groups were well-armed as well with tricked out AR-15s and multiple side-arms.

I think if you included the militia guys and other hangers-on you were without a doubt in excess of 500 as that was hate groups alone. I'd say 500-750 total. David Duke, Spencer and others have been very proud and have said it was the largest meeting of white identity groups in decades.

Again, my point remains that saying there was violence on both sides is a vast oversimplification. You had antifa, church groups, local residents, several politicians/political groups, etc on one-side and it seems only antifa and a few locals engaged in violence or came for violence.

On the other side the 500-750 all came prepared for violence and none of them were good people. That's why it is an oversimplification. One side was pure hate and all members ready or looking for violence. On the other side you had various groups, but only one subset (antifa) came to fight and riot.

I don't think the church groups and peaceful activists should be lumped in with antifa. If you've ever attended any type of anti-racism rally or counter protest to hate groups I think you'd understand what I mean. There are rarely few peaceful "innocents" there to back the racist groups whereas the other side frequently has numerous innocent groups and people counter protesting.

I've attended stuff like this before in downtown Birmingham and while nothing like the scale of this last weekend the composition of each side is similar.

If there is an article or picture showing some of the good or peaceful hate groups and/or with innocent people on their side I'm open to looking at it. I just literally haven't seen anything like that.

Fact remains, these Nazis knew what would happen and went there hoping for violence. They always do. Antifa's no different in their lust for violence and confrontation, but the bulk of the counter protesters weren't antifa. 100% of the "alt-right" protesters were Nazis, racists, and members of hate groups hoping to start a race war.

Trump wants people to think antifa was 100% of the other side and that both sides were equally guilty. It's not true at all.

 

[Evan]

WARNING LANGUAGE

Here is a perfect example. They want you to believe THEY are being persecuted.

Guy threatened to kill people and engaged in violence at the protest. But here is saying he's a victim.

WARNING LANGUAGE:

 

[Evan]

I meant to post this last night, but if you really want to see what the "fine people" that Trump talked about actually said and did at the protest, here you go

This is NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Lots of angry racists using bad language.

 

[Evan]

A play in two acts:

 

[Matt]

They don't need to visit the White House as Trump, Miller, and Bannon are already there.

Spencer, Duke, and all these other vapid fools are the ideological brethren of Bannon and Miller.

And Trump hasn't merely dipped his toe in the water of justifying, praising, and aligning with these groups -- only the bald spot on top of his head is still above water.

Almost word for word the post i knew you make.