Jump to content


Which tornado was the strongest?


538 replies to this topic

#391 tornadoman

tornadoman
  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:04 AM

No I mean it needs reavaluated because of what you said:

It makes no sense to willingly ignore data that we know is correct in favor of sticking to a scale that we know is already very questionable and full of errors and biases. You touched on this when you wondered how many lower-rated tornadoes had higher wind speeds. We don't know because using damage as a proxy for intensity is tenuous at best.

I also don't know what you mean by the EF scale needing to be reevaluated. You mean because it was radar-based?


Obviously, many of the ratings are wrong. But to say El Reno is the super tornado is bogus. How do they know? Technology keeps evolving and other tornadoes were given F3 or F4 just based on their damage.

Edited by tornadoman, 10 June 2013 - 03:06 AM.


#392 andyhb

andyhb
  • Members
  • 3207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:20 AM

View Posttornadoman, on 10 June 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

Obviously, many of the ratings are wrong. But to say El Reno is the super tornado is bogus. How do they know? Technology keeps evolving and other tornadoes were given F3 or F4 just based on their damage.

Who said the El Reno tornado was a super tornado? It was very large (largest path width on record) and clearly intense with very strong multiple vortices, but I don't think anyone called it a super tornado from here. Who are you talking about when you say "How do they know"? "They" know because there were radars observing. Also, I don't understand what the last sentence is supposed to suggest. Does it mean that since technology is evolving, we shouldn't implement it in our data sets (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense)?

If you want a "super" tornado, despite me not liking the term, read up on the events of March 18th, 1925.

Edited by andyhb, 10 June 2013 - 03:21 AM.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
April 27th, 2011: PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION /PDS/ TORNADO WATCHES 232/235 CONTINUE UNTIL 00Z/03Z RESPECTIVELY. THIS INCLUDES THE POTENTIAL FOR LONG-TRACK STRONG/PERHAPS VIOLENT TORNADOES INTO THIS EVENING AS A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK ONLY INCREASES IN MAGNITUDE/RISK. AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS/LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION CONTINUES TO UNFOLD THIS AFTERNOON ACROSS A LARGE PART OF MS/AL.

#393 locomusic01

locomusic01
  • Members
  • 2011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

You seem to be suggesting that since other tornadoes were rated lower despite being capable of F5/EF5, we shouldn't rate this tornado EF5 either. If that's the case, should we also downgrade Joplin since it was rated by unconventional means? Or El Reno 2011 because it was rated partly via radar? If that's the case, all we accomplish is making an already very poor climatology even less accurate. That's the last thing we need.

What's the difference between a tornado just happening to encounter an EF5-worthy structure (not particularly common) and a tornado happening to be observed by mobile radar (also not very common)? In both cases it's just the result of the tornado being in the right place at the right time in order for us to have some way to rate it at the top of the scale.

Edited by locomusic01, 10 June 2013 - 11:44 AM.

Weather-related ramblings:
http://stormstalker.wordpress.com/

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this."

#394 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:50 PM

What an interesting thread.  I've read every post.

Some thoughts:

1.  In general, I agree with some on here that path length should probably have some bearing on perceived max violence.  If tornado A is an EF5 and has a very long path like Phil Campbell's and tornado B is an EF5 with a shorter path like Joplin's, seems to me that at some point during tornado A's life, there is a slightly greater chance the intensity exceeded tornado B's max intensity.  Jarrell, of course, spits in the face of this argument, but it was a single event.  This journal study is relevant:  http://journals.amet...OTROTP>2.0.CO;2

2.  Regarding ground scouring, why do some monsters scour significantly and others don't?  The soil setup, terrain, and moisture I would think all play a role, as well as wind velocity, however, obviously some wedge tornadoes 'tilt' more than others.  I wonder if this has any effect, seems to me it might.  Imagine a helicopter upside down, its blades spinning flat and parallel to the ground.  Then imagine the upside down helicopter slightly above ground but tilted forward at an angle, or to the side, or back.  The spinning blades would have much more significant impacts with the ground.  Does that make sense?  I could see a tornado with rapid rotation that is 'tilted forward' thrusting debris at an angle into the ground, then sucking it all up and moving on.  Something to consider, or not, just an idea.  Also debris simply has to affect damage to any surface, there can be no denying that.  That touches on my next topic.

3.  I'm a project manager and craft trainer for an industrial abrasive blasting and painting company.  You can do damage to your hand if you blast it with high pressure air but you can blast it right off of your arm if you add sand to the air.  The more debris a tornado contains, the more damage it's going to do, I would think.  Debris also helps to determine what the tornado will look like.  If tornado A with 250 mph winds goes over nothing but a parking lot and tornado B with identical winds goes over nothing but loose dirt, well then tornado A will like an EF2 or EF3 and tornado B will look like it should be the 1st EF6.  That's why, when ranking, I take storms like Manitoba and Bowdle, SD with a grain of salt.  Not saying they weren't EF4's or EF5's, the videos are insane, but the "dirt factor" has to have some effect in how big they look.  And that's also why the EF5's from MS & AL in '11 were so impressive.  They didn't just sit on dirt fields but raced over mostly hilly forests, their funnels visible mostly as water vapor.  Yet they still looked HUGE with extremely rapid rotation.  Take Phil Campbell at it's strongest and park it next to Manitoba in a dirt field in Canada.  It would end up dwarfing the latter, I suspect.  So how does one even measure tornado width?  "2 mile wide tornado on the ground!"  Right...  Do you determine width by maximum visible width at the top of the funnel?  The tip?  The middle, half way up the funnel?  The damage path?  What's 'damage'?  It would be difficult but there should be a better standard, maybe "max width of 120mph winds" or something like that.  What do y'all think?  Seems like the second a 100 yd wide screwdriver tornado sucks up some dirt or gets shrouded in rain, it suddenly looks like Bowdle, SD or El Reno, OK and everyone starts with the "2 mile wide!" nonsense.  Not to downplay the devastating impact of Moore '13 but "WIDEST EVER!" or "2.6 MILES WIDE!" seems silly.

4.  Speaking of Moore '13, where does it go on our lists now that have more info?  These lists are impossible to accurately formulate unless we had high tech scans of all of twisters for the entire life of the storms, but we do not.  It is really interesting to try to though, from the limited info that we do have.  And extremeplanet and equusstorm, and others, wow, do they present some info!  I could see a head to head sort of thing happening here where someone presents their #1 and explains their reasons why and someone else presents their #1.  "In this corner we have Phil Campbell '11, and in the other corner we have the challenger, Wheatland '85."  Yeah?

5.  Hurricanes vs tornadoes:  You can have near 200 mph winds from a hurricane do damage over a very widespread area for a very long duration, with ample time to gather and sling around LOTS of debris and you still don't get the complete destruction we see from tornadoes.  So when someone says Jarrell may have only had F3 or F4 winds but it sat so long that it wiped everything out, it seems like they are severely underrating that storm.  Jarrell '97 may have, at times, had the strongest winds on Earth in the last 1000 years, we don't know, and it happened to be in a very slow moving storm.  I think it goes #1 on any list of strongest tornadoes, in the last few decades, at least.  I think, in general, tornadoes have maximum winds far stronger than we suspect, for brief moments.  There is so much violence and suction and comppression and change of direction that brief gusts of incredible power have to happen.  I also think within the next decade or so, given tech advances, there's a decent chance we will clock 400 mph winds in a storm (or 400 mph water particles or tiny debris).  10 Storms that for at least 1 second, may have have had a gust nearing 400 mph:

1.  Jarrell, TX '97
2.  Phil Campbell, AL '11
3   Smithville, MS '11
4.  Mulhall, OK '99
5.  El Reno, OK '11
6.  Red Rock, OK '91
7.  Philadelphia, MS '11
8.  Moore, OK '99
9.  Joplin, MO '11
10.Andover, KS '91

Many others could go almost anywhere in that list:  Lawrence Co., TN '98, Kellerville, TX '95, Goessel, KS '90, Elie, Manitoba '07, Parkerburg. IA '08, Columbus, NE '98, Bowdle, SD '10, Hallam, NE '04

1900-1990:

1.  Tri-State '25
2.  Woodward, OK '47
3.  Wheatland, PA '85
4.  Jordan, IA '76
5.  Brandenburg, KY '74
6.  Beecher/Flint, MI '55
7.  Jackson, MS '66
8.  Tupelo, MS '36
9.  Hudsonville, MS '56
10.Udal, KS '55

Moshannon St. Forrest, PA '85 (F4 but reportedly 2 miles wide, 69 mile path, over 2000ft hills, rivers, etc?? Anyone have pics??) , Ruskin Heights, MO '57, Wichita Falls, TX '79, there are so many...

-Jeff

#395 locomusic01

locomusic01
  • Members
  • 2011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:21 PM

Welcome to the forum, Jeff.

I'd definitely like to see something like the Fujita - Pearson scale that accounts for width and length, though the width could still be misleading. Regarding how the "2.6 miles wide" was arrived at (I'm assuming you meant El Reno and not Moore?), it was the largest width of the 65 mph contour as observed on RaXPol.

About ground scouring, I think the biggest factors are soil/vegetation composition and debris loading, although some tornadoes can have much greater low-level wind and ground interaction than others depending on their structure. As for debris causing increased damage, that's very true. A large, violent tornado can have many thousands of tons of debris, ranging from fine sand particles to large objects. Wind alone can certainly cause lots of damage, but debris is the bigger factor.

You're right about Jarrell, though. All we really have to work with is damage, and no tornado on record has ever caused such utter devastation as Jarrell. It's one thing to sweep away a home, it's another entirely to virtually erase any sign of life (including every blade of grass in some areas). The idea of extremely high-speed, short-duration wind gusts is interesting too. I think I linked to a paper earlier that discussed the possibility of extremely brief and small-scale transonic wind gusts in a violent tornado's corner flow region.

And there are only aerial photos of Moshannon State Forest as far as I know. I think I have a few saved, I'll see if I can find them. Also, if we were to go back to pre-1900, I'd have to submit the July 6, 1893 Pomeroy, Iowa tornado as a contender for top ten.  :biggrin:

Edited by locomusic01, 10 June 2013 - 01:23 PM.

Weather-related ramblings:
http://stormstalker.wordpress.com/

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this."

#396 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:10 PM

You can zoom in and see the incredible path cut into the Moshannon State Forest in PA 1985 here:  http://www.erh.noaa....985_Summary.pdf

Seems as strong or stronger than the 'forgotten F5' in TN.   Speaking of forgotten things, I forgot to include Plainfield, IL '90 on the list.  It has to be on the top ten.

I'd love to see side by side by side damage survey pics of Mashannon vs Phil Campbell vs Lawrence Co., TN...

#397 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

Thanks, loco.

I guess I hadn't been watching the news much, and maybe I assumed they were calling it "El Reno" because maybe there was video of the Moore storm shot from El Reno or something, but I had no idea there was a separate EF5!?  I do recall mention of a weaker storm that killed the famous storm chaser, and saw a video(with his son driving), maybe after I heard 'EF3' I didn't follow up, I don't remember.  So now that EF3 is the widest tornado ever and was actually an EF5 with roughly 300 mph winds?  Jeez.  Embarrassing, but I'm guessing I won't be the last to confuse any of the monster tornadoes near OK city in the last 15 years...   Or last few weeks...

Yeah, I just went with post-1900 to shorten the list.  I agree, Pomeroy, IA 1893, had to have been a monster.

#398 ARCC

ARCC
  • Members
  • 6783 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, AL

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

The thing that gets me about the Hackleburg/Phil Campbell tornado besides the strength and by studying the aerial pictures from the site I've been posting is how many times it pushed the EF5 boundary. From my perspective it was a probable EF5 at least 3-4 times not counting the huge EF5 stretch from Hackleburg to the end of Mount Hope.
"I want to be that man,
who loves the Lord with all his heart just like his word commands,
who takes a stand, and leads his family as he holds the Father's hand,
I want to be that man!"

I Want to be that Man
Brian Free and Assurance

What You Need to Know:
The Cross paved the way for Freedom!
Calvary purchased our Freedom!


And so, I thought, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages, skeptics blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed - the hammers gone.


John Clifford

#399 mwenzbauer

mwenzbauer
  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:59 PM

View Postjbushman26, on 10 June 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Speaking of Moore '13, where does it go on our lists now that have more info?

Personally, I rank it roughly 15-20 on my list (back on page 13) - which puts it squarely in with Tuscaloosa, Andover, etc.  I would not include the '13 El Reno event in my top 20, just not enough high end damage to put it in a list of such high end events.

With regards to Hackleburg/Phil Campbell and ARCC's comment, that's why it's atop my list... sure, Smithville OR Jarrell may have been a tiny bit stronger at one point, but that's debatable, and given the significantly longer path of Hackleburg/PC, and the unparalleled quantity of EF5 rated damage (among recent events), it's hard for me to not believe that it was probably stronger at some point than either of those.

#400 Bull Shark

Bull Shark
  • Members
  • 171 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Petersburg, FL

Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:02 AM

I am definitely reconsidering my view (and low ranking) of the Hackleburg (04/27/2011) tornado, based upon all the fantastic discussion and points of contention in here--and most especially due to the fantastic photographic evidence from the Hackleburg event.

On another note, perhaps a useful way to categorize our unofficial estimates is by category.

For the following categories, rankings are from most to least intense, top to bottom. These reflect my own judgment.

Most severe deforestation / debarking / ground-scouring
1. 05/24/2011 Calumet / Piedmont, OK (worst debarking and deforestation ever)
2. 05/25/1955 Udall, KS (almost-ludicrous debarking, some of the most intense ground-scouring ever)
3. 08/28/1990 Plainfield, IL (ludicrously intense ground-scouring, most intense ever, period)
4. 04/26/1991 Andover, KS (extreme debarking, wind-rowing)
5. 03/18/1925 Murphysboro and De Soto, IL / Griffin and Princeton, IN (very intense debarking, ground-scouring in many locations)
6. 05/12/2004 Harper, KS (entire, large trees thrown long distances, reduced to debarked stumps)
7. 05/27/1997 Jarrell, TX (similar situation to that of Harper, KS: trees shredded to bits)
8. 04/27/2011 Philadelphia, MS (have revised my view; debarking and pine-deforestation look very intense)
9. 04/27/2011 Hackleburg / Phil Campbell, AL (overall deforestation, some sections of ground-scouring)
10. 04/27/2011 Smithville, MS (absolutely incredible wind-rowing and debarking)
11. 05/03/1999 Bridge Creek, OK (combined debarking and ground-scouring)

Most severe damage to large industrial parks or malls
1. 05/31/1985 Niles, OH (mall) / Wheatland, PA (asphalt plant)
2. 05/31/1985 Barrie, Ontario (factories)
3. 07/31/1987 Edmonton, Alberta (large industries flattened)
4. 07/13/2004 Roanoke, IL (Parsons Plant)
5. 04/27/2011 Hackleburg, AL (Wrangler Plant)
6. 03/03/1966 Jackson, MS (Candlestick Park--see photos #1, #2, #3, #4)
7. 02/05/2008 Clinton, AR (boat factory)
8. 04/03/1974 Guin, AL (immense warehouse flattened)
9. 05/25/2008 Parkersburg, IA (steel frame/girder snapped at base)
10. 05/22/2011 Joplin, MO (Home Depot, numerous industries, etc.)

Here are some incredible photos of the debris-granulation /-fragmentation that ensued in the Roanoke (Parsons Plant) tornado. I am shocked that no one has even brought up the damage this tornado did.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Corn stalks near the plant:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Immense ground-scouring nearby:

Posted Image

Also, check out the images of the tornado itself. Some incredible rotation is evident in the size and speed of the debris clouds (suction vortices).

Edited by Bull Shark, 11 June 2013 - 01:30 AM.


#401 ARCC

ARCC
  • Members
  • 6783 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, AL

Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:37 AM

I think of all the pictures I posted, this one sums it all up best of the Hackleburg area. All houses scoured and if any tree is still standing, it is completely debarked and/or chewed to the ground.

Posted Image

Edited by ARCC, 11 June 2013 - 11:40 AM.

"I want to be that man,
who loves the Lord with all his heart just like his word commands,
who takes a stand, and leads his family as he holds the Father's hand,
I want to be that man!"

I Want to be that Man
Brian Free and Assurance

What You Need to Know:
The Cross paved the way for Freedom!
Calvary purchased our Freedom!


And so, I thought, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages, skeptics blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed - the hammers gone.


John Clifford

#402 locomusic01

locomusic01
  • Members
  • 2011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think Jarrell and Hackleburg are probably the only choices I could argue for, depending on whether you value concentrated, unprecedented violent damage or widespread, only slightly less violent damage. I still think you could make a case for any of the four 4/27 tornadoes in terms of maximum intensity, but Hackleburg did it over a massive area.

I think slow forward speed was only one factor in the Jarrell tornado. In fact I'd argue that the scouring played a much bigger role in the damage than the forward speed. It's quite likely many thousands of tons of dirt were added to the tornado, and the force of wind + dirt is massively greater than the force of wind alone. That also explains some of the more gruesome and disturbing things, like people and livestock being skinned and ripped apart to the point that it was hard to tell the difference.

If we're going back to 1900, I'd obviously include the Tri-State Tornado as a challenger to Hackleburg. I've not seen any photos that quite match the extreme damage the Hackleburg tornado produced, there may not even be any, but there are many accounts of ground scouring, trees and low-lying shrubs stripped and shredded, homes completely swept away and scattered hundreds of yards upstream, etc. Several victims were also reportedly thrown well over a mile.

Pre-1900 tornadoes are very interesting as well, I've been trying to come up with a rough list but it's difficult to find reliable information for some of them. I'll have to keep digging. Obviously there are a few obvious ones like 1893 Pomeroy, Iowa; 1899 New Richmond, Wisconsin; and 1896 Sherman, Texas. One or more of the Enigma Outbreak tornadoes may deserve a spot on that list as well.

Edited by locomusic01, 11 June 2013 - 02:51 PM.

Weather-related ramblings:
http://stormstalker.wordpress.com/

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this."

#403 ARCC

ARCC
  • Members
  • 6783 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville, AL

Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:30 PM

I think the thing we can all agree on is one day a tornado like the Tri-State or Hackleburg/Phil Campbell will plow through a major metro area. Massive area of extreme damage along with a very high speed of movement would blow away anything we have seen so far.
"I want to be that man,
who loves the Lord with all his heart just like his word commands,
who takes a stand, and leads his family as he holds the Father's hand,
I want to be that man!"

I Want to be that Man
Brian Free and Assurance

What You Need to Know:
The Cross paved the way for Freedom!
Calvary purchased our Freedom!


And so, I thought, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages, skeptics blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed - the hammers gone.


John Clifford

#404 andyhb

andyhb
  • Members
  • 3207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostARCC, on 11 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I think the thing we can all agree on is one day a tornado like the Tri-State or Hackleburg/Phil Campbell will plow through a major metro area. Massive area of extreme damage along with a very high speed of movement would blow away anything we have seen so far.

A big concern is that we will get one of those on a day like 4/11/65 or 3/28/20 and it will plow right through Chicago or Detroit, and those cities/regions are nowhere near as tornado-aware as Oklahoma/Kansas or parts of Dixie Alley.

Actually, if we're talking the path length of the Hackleburg or Tri-State tornado, it could go through more than one major metropolitan area.

Edited by andyhb, 11 June 2013 - 04:47 PM.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
April 27th, 2011: PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION /PDS/ TORNADO WATCHES 232/235 CONTINUE UNTIL 00Z/03Z RESPECTIVELY. THIS INCLUDES THE POTENTIAL FOR LONG-TRACK STRONG/PERHAPS VIOLENT TORNADOES INTO THIS EVENING AS A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK ONLY INCREASES IN MAGNITUDE/RISK. AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS/LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION CONTINUES TO UNFOLD THIS AFTERNOON ACROSS A LARGE PART OF MS/AL.

#405 locomusic01

locomusic01
  • Members
  • 2011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:46 PM

Yeah, Wurman's paper on urban impacts provides some very disconcerting worst-case scenarios.
Weather-related ramblings:
http://stormstalker.wordpress.com/

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this."

#406 tornadoman

tornadoman
  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:47 PM

I love this forum. It has introduced tornadoes to me that I never payed that much attention too.

#407 andyhb

andyhb
  • Members
  • 3207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

View Postlocomusic01, on 11 June 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yeah, Wurman's paper on urban impacts provides some very disconcerting worst-case scenarios.

Yup, some of those numbers for various damage paths generated for Chicago are truly frightening to ponder.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
April 27th, 2011: PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION /PDS/ TORNADO WATCHES 232/235 CONTINUE UNTIL 00Z/03Z RESPECTIVELY. THIS INCLUDES THE POTENTIAL FOR LONG-TRACK STRONG/PERHAPS VIOLENT TORNADOES INTO THIS EVENING AS A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK ONLY INCREASES IN MAGNITUDE/RISK. AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS/LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION CONTINUES TO UNFOLD THIS AFTERNOON ACROSS A LARGE PART OF MS/AL.

#408 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:01 AM

I looked up Wurman and found an article that had a link to a Bennington, KS 2013 tornado video.  http://www.washingto...nington-kansas/

They measured 247 mph winds with the DOW, and winds of 100 mph stretched 1.5 miles wide.  It was rated an EF4 but what makes it special is it didn't move for an hour.  It was almost completely stationary.  So one would think the damage from such winds on such a SLOW moving storm would be extremely severe, yet “Damage to structures within the path yielded EF3 damage however supplemental data provided by mobile doppler radar sampled winds suggest that this was a violent [i.e. EF4+] tornado,” the NWS survey said.

This speaks volumes about the Jarrell tornado, which at least moved, yet basically left nothing above ground.  Again, those who rank it lower a notch because of it's slow movement severely underestimate it's violence and wind speeds.

#409 sutton82

sutton82
  • Members
  • 3059 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hazel Green

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

View Postjbushman26, on 12 June 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

I looked up Wurman and found an article that had a link to a Bennington, KS 2013 tornado video.  http://www.washingto...nington-kansas/

They measured 247 mph winds with the DOW, and winds of 100 mph stretched 1.5 miles wide.  It was rated an EF4 but what makes it special is it didn't move for an hour.  It was almost completely stationary.  So one would think the damage from such winds on such a SLOW moving storm would be extremely severe, yet “Damage to structures within the path yielded EF3 damage however supplemental data provided by mobile doppler radar sampled winds suggest that this was a violent [i.e. EF4+] tornado,” the NWS survey said.

This speaks volumes about the Jarrell tornado, which at least moved, yet basically left nothing above ground.  Again, those who rank it lower a notch because of it's slow movement severely underestimate it's violence and wind speeds.

I believe the tornado did not hit any structures while it was stationary.

I don't like assigning wind speeds to EF ratings.

#410 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:46 AM

http://www.chron.com...ton-1818187.php

There's an interesting article from my home town.  Yeah, the scenario of a Jarrell-type tornado crawling through Houston is mind-numbing.

#411 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:56 AM

View Postsutton82, on 12 June 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I believe the tornado did not hit any structures while it was stationary.

I don't like assigning wind speeds to EF ratings.

I understand that, it is a damage rating, and it wasn't in an urban area but then what does it mean by "“Damage to structures within the path yielded EF3 damage"?  Sounds like there were some 'structures' to assess a damage rating to.  
And I think it was stationary to near stationary it's entire life.   Regardless, an EF3 to EF4 sitting on the same spot for an hour should have resulted in scouring and leveling equal to Jarrell if one says Jarrell may have been an F3 or F4 but moved so slow that over the course of several minutes it leveled everything.  

Makes we want to see an aerial survey of the Bennington tornado, at least.

#412 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:16 AM

Bennington, KS '13, from wikipedia:

"Upon formation, it snapped power poles and moved southeast before turning north as it approached U.S. Route 81. As the tornado reached the northern end of the track (its strongest point), it destroyed numerous outbuildings, downed trees and power poles, damaged farm equipment, and tipped over a large semi-like truck (while also moving the truck several feet). About 100 cattle were killed in this area as well. The tornado then moved to the southwest and destroyed the roof of a well constructed shed (while throwing the heavy metal shed door into a field), blew a trailer 40 yards (37 m), snapped many more power poles, and downed numerous trees. A home that was under construction lost all four exterior walls and a fifth-wheel camper was blown 200 yards (180 m). A second home suffered minor shingle damage and impact dents in the siding from flying debris, a few more sheds/outbuildings were either damaged or destroyed, and a third home had siding and chimney damage (mostly from debris impact) and was slightly moved off of the foundation. The tornado lifted around 6:45 p.m. CDT (2345 UTC), just to the south-southwest of where it touched down.[8][9]"

Does anyone have pics?

#413 crimsonwake

crimsonwake
  • Members
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harrison, OH

Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:02 PM

http://www.wibwnewsn...orthern-kansas/

A couple pics of the Bennington, KS damage associated with this article.

http://article.wn.co...ahoma_j/#/video

Video of the tornado itself.

#414 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:43 PM

It says those pics are of a smaller tornado's damage in Nemaha, Co., not Ottawa, Co. but thanks anyway.

#415 crimsonwake

crimsonwake
  • Members
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harrison, OH

Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

Sorry, how about these links.

http://www.kansasfir...ged-by-tornado/

http://www.kwch.com/...89.photogallery

#416 jbushman26

jbushman26
  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

Thanks crimsonwake.  That's what I'm talking about.  I see unimpressive damage, at least from those pics of some isolated damage.  Sheds with tin roofs destroyed and a bbq grill tipped over.  No scouring, just an uprooted tree that looked like it still has most of its leaves.   And that storm had 247 mph winds, although not at ground level and certainly not where those pics were taken.  Still, compare that damage to Jarrell, then try to guess its wind speeds.

#417 Harlequhn_Boy

Harlequhn_Boy
  • Members
  • 1350 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midtown Memphis, TN

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:14 PM

View Postjbushman26, on 12 June 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

http://www.chron.com...ton-1818187.php

There's an interesting article from my home town.  Yeah, the scenario of a Jarrell-type tornado crawling through Houston is mind-numbing.

I don't know if an F5/EF5 tornado has ever occurred that close to a coastline... or even that far south? It could, of course, happen.

#418 locomusic01

locomusic01
  • Members
  • 2011 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

There was a tornado in Australia that occurred very close to the coast and may have been violent. I think it was in New South Wales in the 70s. The furthest south F5 I can think of off-hand in the US is probably Rocksprings, TX. Next furthest south may be Jarrell or Jackson, MS or something like that. Hard to judge without checking a map.
Weather-related ramblings:
http://stormstalker.wordpress.com/

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this."

#419 Harlequhn_Boy

Harlequhn_Boy
  • Members
  • 1350 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midtown Memphis, TN

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:26 PM

View Postlocomusic01, on 12 June 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

There was a tornado in Australia that occurred very close to the coast and may have been violent. I think it was in New South Wales in the 70s. The furthest south F5 I can think of off-hand in the US is probably Rocksprings, TX. Next furthest south may be Jarrell or Jackson, MS or something like that. Hard to judge without checking a map.

Edwards County, TX is further south than Jackson or Jarrell so it's probably that.

#420 andyhb

andyhb
  • Members
  • 3207 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:30 PM

Goliad, TX is quite far south and got hit by the tornado that is tied as the deadliest in TX history with the Waco tornado (114 fatalities) on May 18th, 1902. It was likely an F4/F5.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
April 27th, 2011: PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION /PDS/ TORNADO WATCHES 232/235 CONTINUE UNTIL 00Z/03Z RESPECTIVELY. THIS INCLUDES THE POTENTIAL FOR LONG-TRACK STRONG/PERHAPS VIOLENT TORNADOES INTO THIS EVENING AS A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK ONLY INCREASES IN MAGNITUDE/RISK. AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS/LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION CONTINUES TO UNFOLD THIS AFTERNOON ACROSS A LARGE PART OF MS/AL.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users